No baptizing is required. Your whole whine about religious liberty indicates clearly you have a poor understanding of what the term means. Sure. The details can all be addressed and the matter suspended until they are fleshed out, but one needs to address the central question first: Why shouldn’t religion be taught in schools? That is, the fight against having religion involved at a governmental level was led largely by Christians who recognized that having the state involved in Christianity would run the risk of corrupting both church and state. I utilize Greek and Hebrew grammar, definitions, and word usages. However, I don’t think taking on the umbrella issue of whether a generic theism could be true would be too corruptible. Schools do not only aim to teach children basic things, but also help them become good adults. He doesnt use objective standards, he submits everything to his sensibilities. I could see the topic coming up as one topic of many in a philosophy class, but I’m not sure how common philosophy classes are in high schools (and, of course, they don’t exist in grade schools). While for a long time, parents of a certain faith pushed for religion to be taught in schools, they were only determined to have their faith taught on the school curriculum. And what is your measure for a faith tradition having some connection to American history? Even the few deists, like Franklin and perhaps Jefferson, spoke highly of it. If not, why? Having said that, schools are pretty terrible at teaching kids anything; especially our agenda driven modern schools, so I wouldn’t particularly want any school teaching religion. The objection is to a state sanctioning of one particular flavor of religions. I’m guessing you didn’t look at any of it. It’s not a good idea, seems to me. Deriving from this statement, Jefferson believed that the Government’s relationship with the Church should be indifferent, religion being neither persecuted nor given any special status. Religion is a way to show our differences through our unity. Probably not in a 3rd grade math class, though. Hmmmmmmm….”. … Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. However, to teach islam or buddhism or any non-Christian religion makes no sense in a country founded by Christians with founding principles having flowed from Christianity (not necessarily all of them atheists, so watch those panties!). It was also directed at those thought to be harming the Christian faith in which they were raised. In theory, since the Supreme Court explained that we are to “teach not preach” and “educate not indoctrinate,” the analysis could be simple. Three problems here: How? And if most people think like you, I’d be feeling pretty good about being fortunate to be THE last guy with any sense. Religious people would constantly complain about how their beliefs are being misrepresented or characterized. All of which places me comfortably in the anabaptist tradition. So, IF all you are talking about is having a world religion course to relatively objectively educate students about all religions, then I doubt that most people would care. This is a far cry from the constant petulant drivel that comes from you. Are you advocating this for grade school students? ” First you appeared to ONLY want those who agreed with your faith tradition (my faith tradition and those who believe as I do would not be hired by you, according to your earlier comments).”. Or were you referring to some other founding fathers? I hope this clears up at least THIS incredible misconception of yours. Hmm, “Obey the government”. But why not? Creationism and evolution can coexist. He retained primarily Jesus’ moral philosophy, of which he approved, and also included the Second Coming, a future judgment, Heaven, Hell, and a few other supernatural events. Got it. You just assume God exists until proven otherwise, whereas I hold the opposite position and do not accept the assertion without evidence. I don’t disagree with this. I have no way of knowing with any certainty at this point. Seek help. The thing is, from a practical point of view, I have to doubt that conservative Christians would want to see this enacted and enforced in our schools. It is a means of proposing that people are different from each other and have different beliefs. Religion should be taught in the home not at state schools. The Quaker English teacher? It does not. You, apparently, cannot handle the possibility that what I believe is indeed true, so you crumble in a heap and accuse truth seekers of indoctrination and brainwashing. [31][32] At that time, calling a person an infidel could mean a number of things, including that they did not believe in God. How could a christian nation be felled by STD’s? I too would be skeptical of and hesitant to permit doctrinal teachings of particular religions. By not offering an argument or evidence exposes you as holding your view for flacid and unintellectual reasons. Teachers in the suburban town of Wellesley, Massachusetts spend half the school year teaching the world’s religions to … It is just as valid and relevant as evolution. Things like Roe v Wade would never have come to pass had the overall belief in God been more solid throughout the culture at that time, and thus, the need for that law would also have been lessened by virtue of a nation that lives according to a belief system that puts self control over self indulgence. He was merely defending what the 1st Amendment was saying and that is crystal clear in everything you posted related to the issue. It would help the kids to settle down and focus, making for a better day all around. Did you ever take an American history course? There’s no downside. Yet, when a culture leans toward one view, as it once did regarding, say, promiscuous girls being less than ideal for bringing home to Momma, it influences the overall sense of morality and it becomes the accepted sense. If christianity was so important to the fabric of these guys, why did they go out of their way to make sure that it’s influence was mitigated? See Roger Williams, et al. orders you to follow the governments rules/laws because your god put it into place. If you research anabaptists, you would know that anabaptists are on a spectrum. Many of the states required office holders to be Christians. Our acknowledgement or rejection of truth has too great an impact for that. and there would be endless bickering when it came time to decide and what the curriculum would be. If you can’t deal with the issue of a post, why do you even show up? On my watch you will not be teaching any of your so called truth in a public school. Marshall, you continue to use a university in Jefferson’s VA 200 years ago, as if it’s got some weight in this conversation. Nonsense. So nice of you to once again stray from the point in order to demonize. Its goal was complete separation of church and state; it declared the opinions of men to be beyond the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate. During the Middle-Ages, most education was oversighted or run by the Church across Europe. But a culture that has no fear of God in the public square, supports an individual’s own intent to practice self-control. … Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, however, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. This will help teach kids about acceptance and other cultures. “Does the faith traditions of the many settlers from across the globe not count as a connection?”. But you do know that we are not a democracy, right? “How can you claim you know that Dan’s positions will take him to hell but not Jefferson?”. Religion can as well play a major role in preaching abstinence which is one of the laws taught in the church. 200 years ago, we were more homogenous and no one would object to one particular flavor of Christianity being taught in schools. Things are much clearer now. Or wouldn’t it be fair to say that we’re both using our subjective opinions about unprovable matters? All governments have been placed in power by God. Yes it was viewed differently? You, stupidly think “MY SIDE” is losing. The lack of belief in God gives license to self indulgence. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin. Funding schools doesn’t help students learn, Insistence on diversity is the opposite of diversity. Yeah, I believe I know the truth, sure. The government says, via the whiny atheists (I guess your god does work in mysterious ways), that teaching religion in schools is a no go. Wouldn’t your god be taking care of this problem on his own? Indeed, you can find founders that would never vote for an atheist. Historically, it is difficult to deny the importance of religious education. [9], Anti-clericalism, anti-mysticism, and anti-Calvinism[edit] People get more religious when bad things happen and less so when things are calm. Thus, if discussion of God in schools led to the discovery that God does not exist, so be it. John, I have no problem philosophically with the idea of eight year olds or 17 year olds talking about the question, “Does God exist?” any more than I have a problem in theory with 8 or 17 year old’s discussing, “What is the Right answer to abortion or marriage for gay folk?” In theory. I never suggested particular religions be taught. Not at all. It was an accusation commonly levelled at Deists, although they believe in a deity. Do you really WANT people to know how lacking you are? You’ve offered your opinion that ONE version of ONE religion should be taught. Why? Think of the enlightenment that will be of benefit to the student body as those like yourself shred the evidence that exists regarding my radicalized death cult excuse for a religion. Two very different issues. Isn’t it wonderful that we agree? It never happened.This is mainly due to outdated laws that enforce a daily ‘collective act of worship’. Therefore, a well-educated person should know something about at least the basic concepts and beliefs of the world’s religions and the … In fact, some, like Nash for example, could teach it to show how, in his fevered imaginings, it’s lunacy. Yes, in the simplest of terms. And when you’re no longer the majority religion, will you still push for this? Schools should teach religion. Politics and diplomacy have not been the drivers of religion; the reverse is the case. If not, why? ” It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. How could a christian nation be felled by STD’s?”. Try again…. “Flacid and unintellectual”? Jefferson stated in a letter in 1819, “You say you are a Calvinist. The suggestion raises many problematic (for you) questions that remain unanswered.”. Thanks for the kind words. Allah is just the Arabic word for God. We do, for we do not fear the truth. Untwist your panties. The idea – even if you thought it was a good idea – is just not tenable. You’d have to have some bureaucracy created especially for deciding Who gets to teach this class? Jefferson’s perspective? We can’t be having our students discussing one of the most important queries a person could ever consider: does God exist? However, in Notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson supported “a perpetual mission among the Indian tribes” by the Christian Brafferton institution, at least in the interest of anthropology,[41] As president, he sanctioned financial support for a priest and church for the Kaskaskia Indians, who were at the time already Christianized and baptized. ( Log Out /  When Rush died in 1813, Jefferson asked the family to return the document to him. “So you and the majority of the founders lost this fight a long time ago. But then, that’s just one of the many reasons we home schooled our kids. I agree. The mere claim of one group is not evidence against the claim of another. Marshall, I’d say that is an awfully shallow and ridiculously unfair caricature of non-theists. Do you think the Spanish should not refer to God as Dios? We’re talking about teaching what Jefferson regarded as the best set of teachings one could learn and live by. Any time I put faith/religion and public schools in the same post here at Teach 4 the Heart, I get a variety of comments like these ones by Abe & Kayley. Again, where? News My children both absolutely love the lessons. But it wouldn’t come to a democratic vote except to decide whether or not religious instruction should take place at all. Jefferson intensely opposed Calvinism. Mine was that discussions in schools regarding the existence of a supreme being is merely a search for truth of which believers have no fear. That’s very dishonest. Why? The being described in his five points is … a demon of malignant spirit. What subject? Again, why didn’t the Constitution endorse through amendment the christian ideologies of the day? Yes, you’re probably correct on that point. In short, “The summary of the position of christianity not being taught in public seems to be…” anything but that which answers the question. Atheists? There’s no shame in admitting that opinions are subjective when we’re talking about unprovable interpretations and opinions, John. You’re an idiot. As to morality, we’ve had the discussion before regarding how solidly a non-believer feels compelled to adhere to any standard of behavior. Thus, we’ve not implemented any such class.” But what you fail to keep in mind, or choose to ignore, is that religion is already taught in schools of higher learning of all sorts (as I said, my daughter took a course in world religions at Mizzou) without anyone’s grade being contingent upon adhering to any religion whatsoever. You’d think, working in an incredibly multi cultural city like Leicester that there would be better coverage. Not everyone in this country is the same religion and some have no religion at all. You could have said, “Yeah, like that, Dan.” and then foregone all the gnashing of teeth and objecting to particular teachers because of their belief system being different than yours. The fact that most religions also teach these values does not change the lawfulness and desirability of teaching them. Or the way you John, interpret the bible? “No, you don’t want people in my faith tradition/who believe as I do to lead these classes (ANY classes, you said, I believe!).”. In an 1820 letter to William Short, Jefferson wrote: “the serious enemies are the priests of the different religious sects, to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous.”[9] Upon the disestablishment of religion in Massachusetts, he wrote to John Adams: “I join you, therefore, in sincere congratulations that this den of the priesthood is at length broken up, and that a Protestant Popedom is no longer to disgrace the American history and character.”[60]. I get that. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”[58], “ May it [the French Revolution] be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all), the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. If ever man worshiped a false God, he did. There were about 100 comments for and against religious education in schools. I’m guessing you don’t have the stones. Just like you. Some of us are paying attention. Calling me a bigot, without basis, doesn’t get it done. Teaching religion in schools helps students understand the differences among the principles of each and every religion. 0. This discussion is not about evidence for or against the existence of God. Yes, but not in the ways you might think. This response does not answer the question. David, Christians in Arabic speaking countries would agree. In short, your link was redundant. It might prohibit the move in this way: “We believe in teaching religion in school, as we can think of no reason why it should not be, but we haven’t worked out the best way to do it. Change ). In my view religion doesn't belong in the school system. So, if I was the last person on earth to believe in the risen Christ, I should cast off that belief because the whole world thought otherwise? What’s more, despite the rejection of a religious litmus test for elective office, most everyone believed leaders should be among the best examples of a Christian that could be found. You sound like non-believers are not capable of being moral and only non-believers view pornography and engage in self-indulgent behavior. Atheists? Schools do not only aim to teach children basic things, but also help them become good adults. “We can’t let Dan and his type teach the class, so his type of Christians are not approved. On what basis would we choose one flavor of Christianity as the state-sanctioned/approved one? Should Religion Be Taught in Schools? He is the Supreme Being, after all. 1. Report Post. Dan, fundamentally speaking, whats different from our country’s founding where specifically Christianity was taught in schools without questioning? So you see we are in agreement about the existence of God. However, none of that has any bearing teaching religion in schools as it does not establish a national, state, municipal or even neighborhood religion to which everyone must ascribe. Are you only advocating the notion of teaching ABOUT various religious traditions, dispassionately and objectively? The federal government was seen differently. Thank you for the kind wishes. Try sounding out the words. Hello John, Am I mistaken? I attended religious instruction classes in a public schooling system and was ostracised because I asked too many questions that couldn't be answered in a way that satisfied my queries. There will always be someone to object to what consider a bias. It pays to be informed of what’s out there. Is the faith traditions of the Native peoples who were here when Europeans started coming not count as a connection? All the questions you ask are the “how” questions, none of which answer the question of “should”. Parents, who probably don’t have a college degree or training in this subject matter, are a better choice than a complete stranger with training and … Our religious beliefs (including opposition to religion) is part of who we are and forms our world view. Your questions aren’t answers to that one. The experiment was new and doubtful when they made it. Do you want your god to punish you for disobeying his construct? “. (1972.) What a bummer that your team lost…….I wonder why the zealots lost……….and continue to lose? Now, we can do anything we want just like you. Nothing about the suggestion has anything to do with forcing, by government fiat, a set of beliefs on anyone. 5. Religiously motivated hate crimes are on the rise.. But to answer your general question, I respond with a general “No”. Hmmmmmmm….. As for your kids, I truly hope and pray they have indeed turned out well, but I wouldn’t wager on it based on your report, considering your difficulty in dealing with reality. They sought only those professors qualified to teach. If you try to go to Dan’s blog and read his improper understanding of the conservative blogger in question, you will see I exposed his poor understanding of him like I so often expose his poor understanding of Scripture. * A church of the poor “Would your jesus comment on my panties?”. They’re diversionary. Look again at my link on Jefferson’s establishment of the University of Virginia. For example, he invoked the notion of divine justice in 1782 in his opposition to slavery,[33] and invoked divine Providence in his second inaugural address.[34]. 2) I named two venues not one. They have made the happy discovery, that the way to silence religious disputes, is to take no notice of them. I refer once again to the link regarding Jefferson’s UoV. Religion should not be taught in schools as a ‘history of superstition’ Hostility towards Catholicism blinding us to how much we depend on the Christian faith Fri, Mar 15, 2013, 11:45 Not surprisingly, you miss the point. Why Religion Should Not Be Allowed in Public Schools 1604 Words | 7 Pages. You seem to have a lot of special interest spin, always know when other christians are wrong about how they practice their faith, plenty of presumptuous blathering about the secularists and all of their devilish ways, but you don’t know why your god has manufactured this exact construct? Of course, all sides would dispute the manner in which the proposition was discussed. And I did address several reasons why not, already. It's allowed in publicly funded schools - if it's taught as something that some people believe. More people believing might lead to a review of legislation and SCOTUS decisions that stretched the meaning of Constitutional issues beyond the original intent of the founders. [56] Jefferson’s residence in France just before the French Revolution left him deeply suspicious of Catholic priests and bishops as a force for reaction and ignorance. Allah exist. If the result of this objective pursuit is that the entirety of the American population comes to believe with certainty that a god exists, even the Christian God, it only would mean that the entire population agrees, not that a specific religion, not even Christianity in a general sense, has been established as a national religion by which our laws must be crafted and our people abide. Now sure, there are some teachers that just aren’t suited for the task. I would also point out that I haven’t supported the teaching of insanity, nor is this post devoted to the topic. Go ahead and prove that unicorns don’t exist. On the contrary, their harmony is unparalleled, and can be ascribed to nothing but their unbounded tolerance, because there is no other circumstance in which they differ from every nation on earth. We took to Facebook to ask readers: "Are children being 'solicited' into Christianity through religious instruction in school? Previously as the established state church, the Anglican Church received tax support and no one could hold office who was not an Anglican. You look like a dork doing your end zone dance in celebration of your “victory”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_%28theologian%29. I hope you don’t get the vapors. 2 SPECIFIC ISSUES & QUESTIONS you said I presuppose God exists. And not because we “fear” a particular tradition, but simply because it’s a threat to religious liberty. It allows for a well-rounded education. Dan, Your’e doing it wrong. Should religion be taught in schools? Why would such fringe beliefs “need” to be taught in the first place? But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. If not, why? I’m suggesting it be taught so student understand better the founding given the influence of Christianity on the founders and the people of the time. Seemed perfectly OK with most, if not all, of the founders. Some people claim that religious education is a tool that interferes with cultural and private beliefs of … none of those questions matter until the initial question of “why not?” is answered. Here’s a bit more about how the founders felt about religious expression in public life, and since it’s on topic, here a really good piece about Jefferson’s creation of a university. But science cannot mean much without interpretations as to meaning. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. I notice marshall that the more specific the questions get, the less exacting your answers are. News This became one of the American charters of freedom. He often added requests at the end of personal letters discussing religion that his correspondents be discreet regarding its contents.[6]. You can prove a negative. So do what they say, and you will get along well. There’s no reason for allowing religious displays to destruct the public education system. You DON’T want merely to have the option of teaching a world religions sort of class, you want a specifically Christian, specifically modern conservative evangelical-friendly, it would appear. We know you want the best of local news and we’re delivering, but did you know you can get even more – for free? My point is that its not a presupposition. So very open minded of you. If I wanted my child to learn it, I would send her to a private school or Sunday school. Finally, I have provided evidence for my positions on history that come from the pens of those who lived it. I think you would say, No, but if so, then why is it objective for you but not for me when we’re both referencing the same sorts of materials? What's wrong with a bit of love, peace and respect in the kids' lives? We’re talking about teaching just the opposite. Romans 13:? Again, try to answer the question put to you: HOW will we decide which person is going to be offering the class? You represent a minority within a minority. Yet you say non-believers choose not to believe in God or Jesus because they just don’t want the accountability. Once this agreement is reached we’ll move on to establishing the following proposition: You are not making valid arguments here. That every child should understand at least the basics of Christianity would go a long way toward their understanding of the founding of the country and why our Constitution was written as it was. My reading of John’s post clearly indicated he wasn’t calling for a specific religion to be taught, but only that the existence of God, or any god, is a worthy topic for any public school who claims to seek, discover and impart the truth. Ask an astronomer if theres a planet between venus and earth. One is legal and I have no problem with. I think religion is a topic that should be part of any educational program – it’s not the schools place to teach children any particular religion (unless it is a religious school, such as Canada’s Catholic school system, at which point, that’s often part of why parents send them there), but religion has always been an inseperable part of people’s lives and the events of history. We’re a more diverse society. Many will argue that one reason why there are so many issues with religions is that people are not taught to be open about other religions while growing up. It is the name of a moon god, which is why the moon is prominent in islam in the way the cross is in Christianity as a symbol. There is a difference between preaching religion and teaching about religion. You changed the subject pretty quick there. He asserted that the mind is not subject to coercion, that civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, and that the opinions of men are not the concern of civil government. The atheist gym teacher? Its a long story and mostly an in-house discussion. The article “Getting Religion Right in Public School” written by Charles C. Haynes states, “Despite the recent increase in study about religion in schools, many Americans still have little or no knowledge about religions other than … Because whiny atheists complained and spineless judges and politicians acquiesced. One of my brothers, who is an atheist, has recently said the same thing to me. How we do it comes later and if at that point no consensus arises, then we don’t do it. So again, I’ve given reasons why teaching religion is a good idea (with this one focused on teaching Christianity and not merely the existence of God) and I still have not heard any reasons why we shouldn’t ever. The non-theists and agnostics I know are as moral or more so than many believers I know. Wasn’t such a tough prospect back then and it wouldn’t be now, short of anyone giving people like you the time of day. Schools should teach religion. I’ll find out unequivocally in time. Food & Entertainment Indeed, even by your desperate and twisted misuse of the Chapter, our current government does indeed allow for replacing elected officials. Why has your god allowed for this to happen? Because we believe in religious liberty, we are open to others seeking to understand God as best they can. One more thing regarding objections to the notion. Why did your god discontinue that practice? You’ve exposed yourselves for the closed-minded bigots you are and people are rightly writing you all off as irrelevant and pitiable. There is a definitive answer to the question of whether or not God exists, even if determining that answer is beyond our ability. 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