But theists show no interest in doing this, they're satisfied with the first bad study that confirms what they already believe. But all of us are called to overcome. Moreland: we asked god to give us a really good pool table just like the kind that you find in a pool hall, that isn't a cheap one that if you hit it up it shakes. Now that also put me through some struggles because we were already close friends at that point. But there are other cases were the person had been dead for eight hours. chair James C. Wyant said that Fred DiSantoan alumnus and trustee who begins And, in fact, one doctor described her as being one of the most hopelessly ill patients he'd ever encountered." And he said because these precious people that never had a chance to be exposed to God's extravagant love, He works in extravagant ways to let them know. Near death experiences are only reported within religions that support dualism. Author and evangelist Lee Strobel was once an atheist who served as the legal affairs editor for the Chicago Tribune before embarking on a quest to try and disprove Christianity an effort that ironically led him to embrace faith. And so on. In my discussion with Jonathan McLatchie on the Still Unbelievable podcast, I said that there hasnt been a verified miracle claim even since Humes essay on miracles. Millions of unique designs by independent artists. Eventually I found some of it, but what surprised me was the dramatic nature of some of this. Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) - healed from multiple sclerosis The institution that is referenced for the work is Global Medical Research Institute (GMRI) and the documentary about miracles referenced is Send Proof. But it's a wonderful volume. When I've heard the murderer analogy it is to argue against Hume's uniform human experience against miracles, because someone could argue for the murderer by claiming it is against his uniform experience to murder someone -- he's never murdered anyone before. become the next leader of the organization that represents the 63 leading And Jesus answers him with words from Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61 saying, "The disabled will walk. In secular circles, well on the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away. She was miraculously healed. Barbara Snyder earned a bachelor's degree in sociology from Ohio State University and a Juris Doctor degree from the University of Chicago. And sometimes, well it's wonderful when God does it and when he doesn't we still know that we have that hope. That is their foretaste of God's future promise to us when there's going to be no more sorrow, there's gonna be no more pain. For example it's obvious you'll get more miracle reports in Christian circles than, say, atheist circles even if miracles don't exist. So as you've cataloged these different stories and different accounts, what's been the sort of the breath of the geography that's been involved? "To this day.". Join Facebook to connect with Barbara Snyder and others you may know. He is the author of 24 books and there's a couple of books that I want to talk to you about today, Craig. He had asthma all his life. It's the same reason large careful studies aren't done -- they simply don't care enough, and are already believing, so why bother? It also calls into question the motives of God -- God is more concerned to give you a pool table than to cure leukemia in children or heart defects or nearly anything else. I think people sitting back and watching kind of don't take into account that this is life-changing stuff that's happening to these people. I don't believe Barbara Snyder was cured by the intervention of some agent outside the natural world. But my wife and I have also been through a series of miscarriages. This one is obviously ludicrous, but I think undermines the theists claims quite a lot. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was "ambivalent" about whether these miracles still happen today. This one actually is, I think this one is not in the book because I came across this afterwards. Keener: in terms of anomalies whether they're anomalies or whether they're explainable in some way it helps if there's a pattern. life, President Snyder said. Now there's a downside to everything. and Duane Miller (healed from irrevocably damaged vocal chords). We really appreciate your taking the time to come be on the podcast with us. A lot of accounts have been published from Asia. About a week and a half later at my daughter Allison's soccer there were like 20 families and 20 moms and dads there and one of the fathers that I had said hi to but i didn't know him, walks up to me and he says "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and I said "I'm JP" and he said "how are you doing?" And each of us have different tasks. Is this case unusual? process later this month. She mentions a head injury from her accident not a spinal cord injury and never mentions that she was irreversibly paralyzed below the waist. And when you dig in and you start interviewing some of the people and looking at some of the medical documentation, we're not talking about a little bit of evidence. If there's one thing I hope this film does for people that are inside of the Christian faith is that it makes them confident enough to go pray for sick people in impossible situations because that is a means to knowledge as well. Barbara is a director of KeyCorp and Progressive Corporation. I don't think they have established a real effect yet, so it's premature to speak about causes. There are any examples of this, so see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15166467/ and https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-moon-does-not-affect-mental-health-emergency-room-study-suggests as a couple. Scott Rae: Right. Do extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? Visit Pure Flix for access to thousands of faith and family friendly movies and TV shows. From the Send Proof film they admit that they can't publish Bruce Van Natta case because the accurate measurement of the length of intestine needed to verify the result we don't have the technology yet. fall transition to the AAU will depend on the progress of the search process. Sorry! I could just as well say that her brushing her teeth caused the healing, because she was healed in the evening shortly after she brushed her teeth. successor. And then the book that tells the story of your relationship to your wife called Impossible Love. That's such a good way to frame that. Nathan: it's like he understands broadly what he should be doing but then that stands in place of him actually doing it it's like as if just finally having a bit of a grasp of how we should reason about the these things.suppose we agree with you now well why is that the best explanation? Barbara Snyder, JD'80, is president of the Association of American Universities (AAU), an organization composed of America's leading research universities. [] why are they not healed if the context matters and we're defining a miracle as you know divine intervention not just a highly improbable event then how come there's no divine intervention there and if the answer is well god works in mysterious ways who knows well you know that's kind of a hand wave, Elijah: i think also calling a handwave kind of undermines something is imagine you caught a murderer and uh you saw him shoot a guy and he goes well i i haven't shot anyone before in my life um is that what we're trying to show is these are real examples i can't explain the soldier coming home that that makes perfect sense but what i can say is there was a blind lady and she got prayer and her eyes opened up and she had macular degeneration they can verify that before and afterwards and i'm not sure it's rational to call those uh uh just coincidences. Craig Keener: It's my privilege. Here PhD is in history. It would seem that these people are constantly dealing with skeptics, and the easiest way to address it would be to get the pre- and post- medical test data rather than a summary by one doctor, after the fact. On the one hand they use the excuse of "it's not replicable" when asked about how to test it, and on the other hand they want to also say that miracles are common -- more common than people realize. Check out https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=control&category_name=&submit=Search to see the value of doing controlled studies in the field of medicine -- and where it goes wrong when people don't do this. He's effectively asked "look, according to your explanation we would expect miracles to occur actually in many more cases because god apparently has the the reasons and the motivation and the context for him to perform miracles there but he doesn't, so there's a plausibility issue there with with your explanation" Shermer's identified one aspect that seems to be accounted for poorly on the miracle explanation. Also, the theists show a profound lack of imagination in coming up with studies that can test the involvement of an agent, while ruling out other effects. And the reason Usually people don't get medical documentation even when it's available. She had to stop and think to kind of calculate, well to get from this village to that village with this mountain and that mountain, she said, "About three hours.". The 1974 measurement is 20/100 compared to legally blind at 20/200 (uncorrected) which is still quite poor and far from being "restored", but still a large improvement from her measured 7/200 mentioned earlier. Barbara spent years paralyzed, but stood up in an instant. I also think that there is a two-stage process for investigating these and similar processes (i.e. President Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will become the next leader of the organization that represents the 63 leading research universities in the U.S., as well as two in Canada. Then he was prayed for and was instantly healed, could eat, and have his tubes removed. Strobel, 66, is a former investigative journalist with the Chicago Tribune. It is a notable pattern for something to become less observable to more carefully you're able to observe it. Knowledge falls on a continuum. (Read also:Are the Biblical End Times upon us? I mean there was one person, it was so crazy. Each of the cases we've looked at have failed several or all of these properties of good investigation, and should not be believed. I mean Grant still prayed for healing all his life. What would happen if two people out in space a few meters apart, abandoned by their spacecraft, decided to wait until gravity pulled them together? We know that the healing was observed after the prayer, but we don't know if it caused it because we can't rule out an earlier recovery that went unnoticed. We we need a whole lot of a whole lot of cases to be able to to examine that. If there's that many cases there should be enough regularity to detect these things statistically which is exactly the tools we've developed in science to do and to rule out other factors. Despite several operations and treatments, Barbara continued to deteriorate to the point that she was put into respite with doctors orders not to resuscitate. The latest breaking Christian news you need to know about as soon as it happens. Partly, because we are human and have many biases. She earned her bachelors degree from OSU. What about single cases? Even if miracles could be the case, regardless of your worldview, how would you be able to demonstrate that God did it? We would not believe any medical claim that didn't have these properties, so we are not having too high of a standard -- we are just refusing to lower the standard in these cases. And then if so, then how do you account for that? I'm your host, Scott Rae, Dean of Faculty and Professor of Christian Ethics at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Some were tested in persecution. And this is not by any means the most dramatic story I found. Regardless of the contents of the specific studies, this sort of fishing for positive results is thoroughly unscientific and casts significant doubt on any results from this institution. Certainly months in the case of severe atrophy over the course of years. I think we could say your relationship with Medine and how you guys, the two of you made it together, counts as one of those major miracles in your life. How do we know the initial diagnosis was accurate? It's not just about the priors, it's the fact that to be consistent, once you raise your prior for one sort of claim you're doing it for many others -- many claims that you probably don't want to accept. A lot of these things were published in Asia. the natural explanation -- some natural healing plus the imaging being unreliable, the secondary measurement said "approximately 6 feet" as opposed to 3ft, so the "approximately" is doing a lot of work, perhaps under extreme damage there is more healing, but we haven't seen this in other cases because of the rarity of the effect. In my opinion this study represents a larger trend that I have discussed before clinical research going backwards in quality after higher quality studies yield negative results. Feel free to reach out if you want more specifics on a given quote or study. I wear glasses. Brian: Essentially Shermer's complaint about prayer being done and nothing happening is part what you would have in any kind of controlled study because you would have the case looking at all prayer events and which ones had effects and which ones didn't, that's the basic thing they seem unable to even grasp that idea and it shows a certain unwillingness to actually try to find the truth and to rule out these actual alternatives. After all the investigations and scrutiny of the numerous claims, not one single credible and fully verified healing by God or any other non-existent deity . Stories of recalled past memories from past lives only occurs within religions that support reincarnation. Sometimes God uses things. A gymnast back in high school, Barbara hadn't walked in seven years. Christian epistemologist, software engineer, musician, not necessarily in that order. Try comparing these claims to, say, the difficulty in confirming the Higgs boson, gravity waves, black holes, or the accelerating universe. These theists are in fact arguing for a lower level of evidence than we demand of the universities and pharmaceutical companies for their claims. We are interested in the truth and are aware of many other factors (e.g. In his book, The Case for Miracles, evangelist Lee Strobel cites the miraculous healing of Barbara Snyder that took place nearly 30 years ago. Bad Apologetics Ep 20 - Miracles & even MORE even NEWER Resurrection evidence, Unbelievable? in social ethics from the University of Southern California, a Th.M. I think a lot of times people will see something as a miracle because we're inclined to believe in miracles, you can also have confirmation bias to say I'm inclined not to see this as a miracle because I just don't think those things happen. The point is to first establish that there is some interesting effect there, regardless of the cause, and only after passing that threshold do we get to consider a more in-depth investigation. These responses just seem so, I don't know, juvenile to me like it's like they haven't thought about these issues. "This male voice coming from the corner of the room where nobody was said, 'Get up, my child, and walk,'" Strobel recounted. for her new role. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was ambivalent about whether these miracles still happen today. Likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the potential occurrence of miracles. They also make the claim that, for example, in Heidi Baker's ministry in Mozambique these healing happen "all the time" and are thus replicable. Without further data, it is impossible to rule out these things, but you'd think the data would be available with something this recent? We don't do this for any medical claims. That is the definition of supernatural. One miracle in particular stands out. This is the pattern we see of something that is non-existent, and the healings follow this exact same pattern. This is incredibly compelling stuff. Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. Stanford and Johns Hopkins University. achievements during Snyders tenure include: Association of American Universities (AAU), Maltz Center donors, performers celebrate Phase II, School of Medicine graduate program information tabling event, Summer study abroad with CWRU faculty information session, New study reveals ketamine could be effective treatment for cocaine-use disorders, Get to know members of the National Pan-Hellenic Council at CWRU: Week 3, Begun with a $1 billion goal, it ultimately raised. The way people like the stories highlights their way of thinking and provides a teachable moment about like why don't we trust claims just from the claims, even if it has a peer-reviewed journal article. Stay up-to-date with current issues, Christian teachings, entertainment news, videos & more. At least there is documentation published at https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/. 13800 Biola Ave, La Mirada CA 90639 BiolaUniversity, Inc. All Rights Reserved. As you begin your hike, set your sights on a new direction. It's still healing. I know we, we were really, really praying for him. Reserve today is in a position to attract a broad range of outstanding But if it hasn't been after so many years people say, "Ah, it might just be temporary.". Join us for this fascinating discussion of miracles today. Since these diseases are genetic, it makes it a lot less likely that she had this condition. In addition to Case Western Reserve, all Skepticism is basically that we proportion our belief to the evidence, and we've found (through science) that to do it we need to disbelieve most claims, that we need to acknowledge our biases, and to recognize that even the scientific process is limited. James Fodor suggests, as an example, doing the prayer studies in different languages to help rule out some of the competing effects. There's a long list of reasons for this poorly understood condition. It involves Barbara Snyder and took place nearly 30 years ago. I love this Bible study!" A Barbara Sent Home to Die Let me tell you now about a different Barbara, Barbara Cummiskey.2 When she was a teenager, doctors diagnosed Barbara with multiple sclerosis (MS). We know exactly how skeletal muscle tissue is developed, and it takes weeks to months. Yeah, I think of my friend Nabeel Qureshi. I want this post to be the place where I put as many of the specific miracle claims, the actual evidence presented, and some of the responses. February 4, 2019 8. I doubt Keener has tried to actually get this done beyond the anecdotal level. James: yes so think about what Shermer has done. Scott Rae: Welcome to the podcast Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. It's a story of how you met your wife, Medina, and I'm taking I pronounced that correctly. It still could fit James, Chapter Five or gifts of healings for those of us who believe in that. The dead will be raised." In my discussion with Jonathan McLatchie on the Still Unbelievable podcast, I said that there hasnt been a verified miracle claim even since Humes essay on miracles. Now of course, after six minutes with no oxygen you have irreparable brain damage starting in, but Terese had no brain damage. Barbara Cummiskey Snyder is on Facebook. It's not something to feel badly about. But Greg Spencer had been going blind due to macular degeneration. But at a time when higher education itself faces Taking the story as the evidence is problematic. Then, on Pentecost Sunday, two of Synders friends read her letters from those praying for her. Given the number of miracle claims, and the bold claims of Christians throughout these videos, and the proliferation of cameras in people's pockets, there should be thousands of convincing videos of miracles. Has it been confirmed? Kamil: so he basically said, look the way we do it is that we have, let's say seven different possible explanations, six of them are naturalistic which we can disconfirm using science and then the seventh is the explanation that God did it. So I guess, what surprised you the most as a result of your study from when you set out to do this to when you got to the end? Now, Strobel, whose personal story was told through the Pure Flix feature film, book and documentary titled The Case for Christ, has released, The Case for Miracles, a new investigative book that relies on facts, interviews and studies to further explore spiritual matters. I wasn't able to be in touch with her for that year and a half, but I didn't know if she was alive or dead. If something is real, when we can more carefully observe it, it becomes easier to see not harder. And her hands had been curled up so much that every few months they had to uncurl her hands to get the dead skin out. I sort of think that these popular apologetics books will briefly touch on some of these tools that should be used but then that's a stand-in that makes people think that they're actually using them. We're talking about a lot of evidence. Dying M.S. And he went to a retreat for the healing of the mind. She Also there is this general trend of naturalism in which you are looked down upon if you believe that the supernatural can occur so there is this whole culture at play where the medical community is working against finding truth". A legal scholar, Snyder was the first woman to serve as the Case Western's president. It's not the fullness. Scott Rae: I love how you put that, that healing now is a foretaste of the Glory of the Kingdom. So tell our listeners some of the stories that you uncovered as a result of your research. Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. I think it also is evident that the theists aren't serious about studying these things, and are content to believe things on bad evidence. I confess I haven't made it through all 1000 pages. I've written about this before about UFO claims, that they fall into two categories: There could potentially be a category 3 where the evidence does support the claim, but I have never seen it in any that I have personally investigated, either for UFO claims or for miracle claims. So, we know that at least 450 Christians began praying for her, because they wrote letters saying, 'We're praying for you.. It is quite clear that once you allow one miraculous healing in, using evidence of just one person, then one has to let in a whole host of others. Ad by The Penny Hoarder What companies will send people money when they're asked nicely? This is pretty silly. J.P. Moreland points out that, well this was a number of years ago, maybe 10 years ago, he pointed out that in the previous three decades about 70% of all Evangelical growth had been due to signs and wonders. Subjects reported impaired vision or hearing at the beginning of the study and were tested with standard vision or audiology tests before and after treatment. But in some places Like I had a student from India, a doctor of ministry student, who said almost everybody that he prays for in India gets healed. Not at all, given that all of the facts of his case fall within the known bounds of what is possible and observed, even if rare. James is right that the evidence on a lot of these cases is really really bad. He didn't see any fire so people are getting [inaudible] what's this about? And she'd also been teaching some at the University there, but she had to flee the capital sick with malaria. AfghanistanWhere Faith Is a Matter of Life and Death. This is a very important fact to grasp, so let me repeat it. Though he believed the Biblical stories of Christs miracles, Strobel was less convinced miracles were happening today. All rights reserved. The latter has more eyewitness testimony than we have for Barbara Snyder. I misspoke in the episode for the next one, thinking the name was Barbara Snyder, but Barbara's case is an MS case. Scott Rae: So tell Give our listeners a story from the U.S. or some other part of the west where you do have medical documentation to back up the account and to backup the interpretation of it that this is genuinely something miraculous. Strobel, 66, is a former investigative journalist with the Chicago Tribune. He died of stomach cancer at a, I think what was he? Share it with a friend. That is directly below. As you may expect, the studio's ruse is eventually found out, Lina never makes movies again and Kathy becomes a star and happily hooks up with the leading man. Pure Flix for access to thousands of Faith and family friendly movies and TV shows reason Usually do. That also put me through some struggles because we were already close friends at that point when higher education faces! 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